美国国家公共电台 NPR Edward Snowden Tells NPR: The Executive Branch 'Sort Of Hacked The Constitution'

 

SCOTT SIMON, HOST:

Edward Snowden has written a book. It is a memoir¹, a coming-of-age-with-the-Internet story, a spy tale and, his critics would say, an attempt to try to justify² betraying his country, by a man who was charged in 2013 with two counts of violating the Espionage³ Act and with theft of government property - confidential⁵, national security information. Mr. Snowden's book is "Permanent Record." Edward Snowden joins us now from Moscow.

Thanks so much for being with us.

EDWARD SNOWDEN: Thank you for having me on.

SIMON: I think a lot of people don't want to hear anything you have to say until I've asked you this question. Are you being used by Vladimir Putin?

SNOWDEN: (Laughter) No, I don't think so. When people look at this, you know, particularly with Russia in the news as much as it is, there's always this cloud of suspicion that's leveled against anybody who can be, in the most stretched way, associated with Russia. It wasn't my choice to be in Russia.

SIMON: Most stretched way - you're living there in Moscow. You have been for six years.

SNOWDEN: Right, but it was not my choice to be here. And this is what people forget. I applied⁶ for asylum⁷ in 27 different countries around the world, and it was the government, the United States government, then-Secretary John Kerry, that canceled my passport as I was leaving from Hong Kong en route to Ecuador. And this locked me in place.

I believe they panicked. And I think the reason that I'm in Russia today is because what we know - this was actually publicly reported in 2013. Every time one of these other countries, one that the United States public would be much more comfortable with - a France, a Norway, a Germany - one of two people would call the Foreign Ministry⁸ of that country. And it would be either Secretary of State John Kerry or then-Vice President Joe Biden.

The idea here is they would go, look; we understand that he has been charged with political crimes. This means you don't qualify for extradition⁹, and you almost always do qualify for asylum protections. And the government - we know you can do this, but if you do, we want you to understand there will be a response. We're not going to say what it will be, but it will be severe because we don't want to see the public seeing this guy as a whistleblower, which the public then was coming around to do.

SIMON: You say the U.S. government panicked. Did the U.S. government panic, or just they felt it was important to the national interest of the United States to make certain you - your movement was limited?

SNOWDEN: What is the thing they are arguing is in the interest of the United States here? Sort of like in your introduction, you say some people say I betrayed the United States. Well, how did I betray the United States? All of my information was given to the American public through some of the most trusted institutions in journalism¹⁰, institutions like The Washington Post. Now, as a condition of access to this archive material, these journalists were required not to publish any story that they thought was harmful, no story simply because it was interesting, no story simply because it was newsworthy - only stories that they were willing to make an institutional argument and stand for. It was in the public interest to know.

And here, as an extraordinary safeguard on top of this, I required each of the journalists working with this material in advance of publication to go to the government before they ran stories. And this is why in 2013 we heard exactly the extraordinary rhetoric¹¹ that you raised before. But now in 2019, we don't hear this anymore. We have seen the laws changed. We have seen the programs changed. And we have even seen officials in the United States intelligence community - former Deputy Director Richard Ledgett, for example - say that he thought the NSA had made a mistake in concealing¹² this program, the particularly unconstitutional phone records program, because he believed that if the NSA hadn't played these secrecy¹³ games and denied the American people the right to know, much less the right to vote on it, they could've won that sort of persuasive¹⁴ argument. But they didn't do it. They had made a mistake, and it had harmed the rights of everyone in the United States and everyone around the world as a consequence. And they call me the traitor¹⁵?

SIMON: You recount in this book how Russian intelligence representatives met you at the airport in Moscow and said to you - I'm going to quote from your own book - "life for a person in your situation can be very difficult without friends who can help. Is there some information you could share with us?" You're there six years later. You can see why people might be suspicious, can't you?

SNOWDEN: I was trapped in that airport for 40 days. If I had played ball, I would've left Day 1 in a limo. You know, I would've been living in a palace. You would see them giving me parades in Red Square. The reality is this. I had destroyed my access to all of the classified material that I provided to journalists before leaving Hong Kong precisely¹⁶ because I didn't know what was going to happen next.

SIMON: Are you - at the same time, though, you're in Moscow. Are you, a very smart man, naive¹⁷ to think that Vladimir Putin is going to give you asylum without expecting something in return?

SNOWDEN: All throughout the Cold War in the United States, we protected dissidents from the Soviet¹⁸ government. These are, you know, writers. These are speakers. These are physicists¹⁹. These are not people who can benefit the United States government even if they had wanted to. And we protected them nonetheless because of the message it sent.

Now, the Russian government doesn't get many chances in this context internationally, on the global stage, to do the right thing. I have been criticizing the Russian government while I am here. What more can I do to satisfy you or any of these critics who hold these positions? The reality is there is nothing that will satisfy them because it is their suspicion, it is their skepticism, it is their distrust of the Russian government as an institution which is motivating this.

SIMON: I mean, do I have to detail for you the ways in which the Putin government has earned (laughter) some suspicion?

SNOWDEN: No, no. Absolutely not. Again, I agree with you. This (laughter) - look, look; this is why I have been criticizing the Russian government. There's no distance between us on that. I'm not saying Vladimir Putin is an angel. I'm not even saying Vladimir Putin is a decent guy. What I'm saying is you have to understand there doesn't need to be a quid pro⁴ quo here for it to make sense.

SIMON: Edward Snowden. Elsewhere in the program, he talks about his work at the NSA before he leaked classified information and tells us what's keeping him from returning to the U.S. to face trial.

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1 memoir   

n.[pl.]回忆录，自传；记事录

参考例句：

• He has just published a memoir in honour of his captain.他刚刚出了一本传记来纪念他的队长。
• In her memoir,the actress wrote about the bittersweet memories of her first love.在那个女演员的自传中，她写到了自己苦乐掺半的初恋。

2 justify   

vt.证明…正当(或有理)，为…辩护

参考例句：

• He tried to justify his absence with lame excuses.他想用站不住脚的借口为自己的缺席辩解。
• Can you justify your rude behavior to me?你能向我证明你的粗野行为是有道理的吗？

3 espionage   

n.间谍行为，谍报活动

参考例句：

• The authorities have arrested several people suspected of espionage.官方已经逮捕了几个涉嫌从事间谍活动的人。
• Neither was there any hint of espionage in Hanley's early life.汉利的早期生活也毫无进行间谍活动的迹象。

4 pro   

n.赞成，赞成的意见，赞成者

参考例句：

• The two debating teams argued the question pro and con.辩论的两组从赞成与反对两方面辩这一问题。
• Are you pro or con nuclear disarmament?你是赞成还是反对核裁军？

5 confidential   

adj.秘（机）密的，表示信任的，担任机密工作的

参考例句：

• He refused to allow his secretary to handle confidential letters.他不让秘书处理机密文件。
• We have a confidential exchange of views.我们推心置腹地交换意见。

6 applied   

adj.应用的；v.应用，适用

参考例句：

• She plans to take a course in applied linguistics.她打算学习应用语言学课程。
• This cream is best applied to the face at night.这种乳霜最好晚上擦脸用。

7 asylum   

n.避难所，庇护所，避难

参考例句：

• The people ask for political asylum.人们请求政治避难。
• Having sought asylum in the West for many years,they were eventually granted it.他们最终获得了在西方寻求多年的避难权。

8 ministry   

n.(政府的)部；牧师

参考例句：

• They sent a deputation to the ministry to complain.他们派了一个代表团到部里投诉。
• We probed the Air Ministry statements.我们调查了空军部的记录。

9 extradition   

n.引渡（逃犯）

参考例句：

• The smuggler is in prison tonight,awaiting extradition to Britain.这名走私犯今晚在监狱，等待引渡到英国。
• He began to trouble concerning the extradition laws.他开始费尽心思地去想关于引渡法的问题。

10 journalism   

n.新闻工作，报业

参考例句：

• He's a teacher but he does some journalism on the side.他是教师，可还兼职做一些新闻工作。
• He had an aptitude for journalism.他有从事新闻工作的才能。

11 rhetoric   

n.修辞学，浮夸之言语

参考例句：

• Do you know something about rhetoric?你懂点修辞学吗？
• Behind all the rhetoric,his relations with the army are dangerously poised.在冠冕堂皇的言辞背后，他和军队的关系岌岌可危。

12 concealing   

v.隐藏，隐瞒，遮住( conceal的现在分词 )

参考例句：

• Despite his outward display of friendliness, I sensed he was concealing something. 尽管他表现得友善，我还是感觉到他有所隐瞒。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• SHE WAS BREAKING THE COMPACT, AND CONCEALING IT FROM HIM. 她违反了他们之间的约定，还把他蒙在鼓里。 来自英汉文学 - 三万元遗产

13 secrecy   

n.秘密，保密，隐蔽

参考例句：

• All the researchers on the project are sworn to secrecy.该项目的所有研究人员都按要求起誓保守秘密。
• Complete secrecy surrounded the meeting.会议在绝对机密的环境中进行。

14 persuasive   

adj.有说服力的，能说得使人相信的

参考例句：

• His arguments in favour of a new school are very persuasive.他赞成办一座新学校的理由很有说服力。
• The evidence was not really persuasive enough.证据并不是太有说服力。

15 traitor   

n.叛徒，卖国贼

参考例句：

• The traitor was finally found out and put in prison.那个卖国贼终于被人发现并被监禁了起来。
• He was sold out by a traitor and arrested.他被叛徒出卖而被捕了。

16 precisely   

adv.恰好，正好，精确地，细致地

参考例句：

• It's precisely that sort of slick sales-talk that I mistrust.我不相信的正是那种油腔滑调的推销宣传。
• The man adjusted very precisely.那个人调得很准。

17 naive   

adj.幼稚的，轻信的；天真的

参考例句：

• It's naive of you to believe he'll do what he says.相信他会言行一致，你未免太单纯了。
• Don't be naive.The matter is not so simple.你别傻乎乎的。事情没有那么简单。

18 Soviet   

adj.苏联的，苏维埃的；n.苏维埃

参考例句：

• Zhukov was a marshal of the former Soviet Union.朱可夫是前苏联的一位元帅。
• Germany began to attack the Soviet Union in 1941.德国在1941年开始进攻苏联。

19 physicists   

物理学家( physicist的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• For many particle physicists, however, it was a year of frustration. 对于许多粒子物理学家来说，这是受挫折的一年。 来自英汉非文学 - 科技
• Physicists seek rules or patterns to provide a framework. 物理学家寻求用法则或图式来构成一个框架。