pbs高端访谈:同性婚姻伴侣享受同等联邦福利

 　　JEFFREY BROWN:And we have two takes on questions being asked about the day after the rulings.

　　First, how the court's decision—decisions impact federal benefits for same-sex couples and the continuing challenges ahead.

　　Winnie Stachelberg joins me to explain. She's an executive vice¹ president at the Center for American Progress. And welcome to you.

　　WINNIE STACHELBERG,Executive Vice President, Center for American Progress: Great to be here.

　　JEFFREY BROWN:I want to pick up first on what the president was just saying about this issue of couples married in one state moving to a state where perhaps that's not recognized.

　　How big a deal, first, is this patchwork² system that we have?

　　WINNIE STACHELBERG:Well, the patchwork system is a very big deal, which is why we are eager to have marriage equality in all 50 states, because the patchwork just doesn't work for a married couple.

　　What exists right now is in the 13 states and the District of Columbia where are you legally married, you are legally married for the purposes of state benefits, and now, with DOMA's demise³, federal benefits, the tricky⁴ issue comes up if you have a legal marriage in Massachusetts, one of those states, and then you move to Alabama. You're still married, and the question now remains⁵, do you get federal benefits living in Alabama?

　　JEFFREY BROWN:Well, pick up on that. Now, that's after DOMA, right? So, what is happening right away after yesterday's rulings for federal agencies to start making decisions like that?

　　WINNIE STACHELBERG:Well, as you said in your setup piece, what is happening right now is federal agencies are moving to change forms, to promulgate⁶ regulations to make clear that if you are a married couple living in one of those states and you are legally married, federal benefits will flow to you, so whether that's Social Security survivor⁷ benefits, federal health benefits, benefits that go to people in the military.

　　Those will all flow to the people who are legally married in those 13 states and the District of Columbia. And the federal agencies are moving as quickly as they can. There's a 25-day window for the decision to take effect. But those agencies are moving now to train workers, to change forms, and to get in place the proper forms and statistics and all of that so that those benefits can flow to those couples.

　　JEFFREY BROWN:If I understand this right, one of the issues, though, is that these agencies define marriage, when a marriage is valid⁹, differently, according to where it might have taken place, where a couple lives now, et cetera.

　　WINNIE STACHELBERG:That's exactly right. So, right now, there is a place of celebration or a place of domicile rule.

　　And various benefits flow depending on whether the agency follows a place of celebration or a place of domicile rule. For example, Social Security Administration, spousal benefits, survivor benefits, very important to gay and lesbian couples, very, very important, and those flow from a place of celebration.

　　So, for the purposes of Social Security benefits, those should start to flow to gay and lesbian married couples right away. There are other benefits that are dependent on a place of domicile rule. In other words, you are married in a certain state and you reside in that state, you're OK. But if you are married in a certain state and you move to another state, those federal benefits, it's a little trickier¹⁰.

　　JEFFREY BROWN:And some of these other things, military veterans' benefits, immigration laws?

　　WINNIE STACHELBERG:Interestingly, on immigration laws, those follow a place of celebration rule.

　　So, for the purposes of immigration law—in fact, yesterday, you saw—minutes after the Supreme¹¹ Court ruled, you saw a New York immigration judge grant a binational couple—sort of ended their deportation¹² proceedings¹³ because DOMA fell in New York State, where the couple was legally married.

　　JEFFREY BROWN:The president asked Attorney General Holder¹⁴ to review federal benefits at all of these agencies that we're talking about. Some of these things can be done by executive action. Do some of them require Congress?

　　WINNIE STACHELBERG:That is unclear, whether all of them can be taken care of through executive action. The advocates, we are asking this administration to issue an executive order to move that any agency that requires a place of domicile rule, in other words, where you are—where you live, not where your marriage was celebrated¹⁵ or solemnized, that the executive order be issued to make clear that it is in fact a place of celebration.

　　JEFFREY BROWN:And do you expect all of this to—to the extent that there is a continuing disconnect, where we started, among states, do you expect more litigation to rise out of all this?

　　WINNIE STACHELBERG:Well, I think right now we're focused on ensuring that the benefits flow to those couples who are legally married in these states.

　　One other interesting note is those in active military duty through the Pentagon, about 30 percent of the compensation of someone in the military is base pay, is salary. But about 70 percent of that compensation is actually benefits. And the Defense¹⁶ Department is moving very quickly to ensure that gay and lesbian married couples get the kinds of benefits that their heterosexual counterparts get as well.

　　JEFFREY BROWN:All right, Winnie Stachelberg, thank you. Thank you very much.

　　WINNIE STACHELBERG:Pleasure to be here. Thanks.

　　JEFFREY BROWN:And now we turn to some of the political reverberations of the decisions from New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman and Republican Congresswoman Vicky Hartzler of Missouri.

　　Well, welcome to both of you.

　　Eric Schneiderman, I want to start with you. You have been a strong proponent¹⁷ of same-sex marriage. Pick up first on the discussion we were just having about this patchwork of laws. How big a problem is it, do you think? What issues does it raise for you?

　　ATTORNEY GENERAL ERIC SCHNEIDERMAN, New York: Well, we had a patchwork before. I mean, some states, like New York, in our state, our legislature passed, our governor signed a law allowing same-sex marriage.

　　But, up until yesterday, our marriages and our married couples, including Edie Windsor, the plaintiff in the case that struck down DOMA, were not treated with the same dignity and respect as all other marriages. So, we still have a patchwork, but we now have the federal government taking its thumb off the scale, if you will, and saying that, at least for federal purposes, under the Fifth Amendment¹⁸, the federal government cannot, as Justice Kennedy wrote, write inequality into the U.S. code.

　　And we expect the government to take action, as the president has indicated, to clean up some of the remaining problems administratively¹⁹ with that. But now New York marriages and marriages from Massachusetts and everywhere else, people who are legally married and the children they are raising are going to be treated by the federal government with the same dignity and respect as every other marriage. And that is a great step forward for New Yorkers and for equality.

　　JEFFREY BROWN:And, Congresswoman Hartzler, same question to you, as someone who has been a strong opponent of same-sex marriage. What do you make of the situation with the patchwork around the nation?

　　REP. VICKY HARTZLER, R-Mo.: Well, I think it speaks to why they passed that initially²⁰, that marriage at the federal level is between one man and one woman, because there's over 1,000 different federal laws that have to do with marriage.

　　And so it was for a very practical reason. It wasn't for—against—animus against anyone, as if Justice Kennedy portrayed²¹. It was because of a very practical reason. And I believe in dual²² sovereignty, and that the states should be able to make laws governing states, and the federal government should be able to make laws regarding the federal government.

　　And it makes sense for children that we have and uphold marriage as between one man and one woman. It's for the best for them, and we should be able to uphold that ideal for them.

　　JEFFREY BROWN:Eric Schneiderman, where do you see the politics now coming out, out of yesterday's decision? Where are we now when you look around at different states?

　　ERIC SCHNEIDERMAN:That I think that—I think the politics are and were clear, and I think the latest surveys show something like 80 percent of Americans under the age of 30 favor same-sex marriage and equality of all those marriages.

　　And I have to say that the politics were moving toward equality, the same way the politics of integration²³, an end to racial discrimination had been moving towards equality. This is a part of our American tradition. And it's not—one of the most important things about the decision is it puts to rest the argument that there is anyone harmed by the recognition of same-sex marriages.

　　There is no person, there's no straight marriage, there's no institution that is harmed. That was—they had years to come up with this. Justice Kennedy didn't find it. The only thing left after the Prop⁸ 8 case is cleared away is the decision of the district court in California, 136 pages, same principle. Equal justice under law requires the recognition of all marriages.

　　The only people who are being harmed were the millions of same-sex couples across America, and the children that those couples are raising, because you may not like the fact that there are gay people in loving relationships and that they're raising lots of kids, but they are. And now, since the Supreme Court ruled, they are entitled to equal treatment by the federal government.

　　And I think that that is just going to continue the trend in states around the country as we move, as we have always as a country, towards greater inclusion and greater equality with every generation.

　　JEFFREY BROWN:Well, let me ask Congresswoman Hartzler, because, yesterday, I note you joined a group of conservative legislators, lawmakers, and talked about coming up with some kind of response to this. What kind of response would that be?

　　VICKY HARTZLER:Well, first, I think it's very important to note that the Supreme Court didn't make same-sex marriage the law of the land across the country, and they're going to allow and uphold the 35 states who have said that marriage is between one man and one woman.

　　And I would say that it's certainly not inevitable²⁴. We're going to continue this discussion, but we even had North Carolina last year that voted to uphold marriage between one man and one woman. And I think it's a disgrace for the democracy that the Supreme Court didn't allow the millions of people in California who spoke²⁵ on this issue, not once, but twice, to have a voice and a say in this.

　　And their attorney general abandoned them. So, I think that's a real shame. And that's what was at stake yesterday, is, is the will of the people going to prevail or are five unelected bureaucrats²⁶ going to override²⁷ the will of the people and silence their voice? And that's what happened.

　　JEFFREY BROWN:Let me just stay with you. Do you not see the kind of cultural shift, as well as political shift, that Mr. Schneiderman was talking about?

　　VICKY HARTZLER:Well, it certainly is a discussion that we are having as a nation. But I don't think that the story is totally told on this at all.

　　And, like I said, there's a vast majority of Americans who support marriage between one man and one woman, because they know it's a special institution that sets up the best place to raise children in this society, and that's why government is in the marriage business. It's not because it cares about romance. It's because it cares about the rights of children and promoting an environment that is best for their upbringing.

　　And so I think many people still uphold that ideal, and still want that. And so we're going to continue to see that advanced in this country.

　　JEFFREY BROWN:Well, Mr. Schneiderman, it is true that the majority of states still have bans. So there is still ...

　　Go ahead.

　　ERIC SCHNEIDERMAN:There were a lot of states in 1967 that banned interracial marriage when the court ruled that it was unconstitutional in Loving v. Virginia.

　　The only children that are being hurt by states that discriminate²⁸ against marriage equality are the kids being raised by gay couples. There's no harm to our families, straight families who have kids or want to be married or get divorced from authorizing²⁹ and empowering same-sex couples.

　　But there is a reason we have a Constitution in this country. There is a reason that there are some laws you just can't pass. You can't pass a law saying black people aren't equal to white people or women aren't equal to men. And, yesterday, there was a very strong statement that you cannot pass a law that has no other justification³⁰. And the proponents³¹ of these laws had years to come up with it, and they had nothing.

　　You can't pass a law that discriminates³² against gay couples and gay people from—and that's just in keeping with our American tradition. And I think, in 20 or 30 years, people will look back on this as we now look back on Loving v. Virginia and the days of prohibition³³ of interracial marriages and say, what were they thinking?

　　I'm proud to be an American, a New Yorker, and a part of the American legal tradition today. And I thank Edie Windsor and all the folks who have been fighting for their rights and the rights of all of us for years.

　　JEFFREY BROWN:All right.

　　ERIC SCHNEIDERMAN:And I look forward to other states following New York.

　　JEFFREY BROWN:And let me just have a quick last word from you, Vicky Hartzler. Do you think that we're seeing—we're going to see more litigation potentially back up to the Supreme Court on this subject?

　　VICKY HARTZLER:Oh, absolutely.

　　There's going to be a lot of litigation on this ruling. There wasn't a clarity on a lot of it. And the American people still believe that fathers and mothers are important in the lives of their children, and they're going to continue to see that marriage does matter and that we need to continue to advance and uphold those ideals in our country.

　　JEFFREY BROWN:Vicky Hartzler, Eric Schneiderman, thank you both very much.

　　ERIC SCHNEIDERMAN:Thank you.

　　VICKY HARTZLER:Thank you.

　　JEFFREY BROWN:And, online, our resident Social Security expert weighs in on the new benefits that can now be—excuse me—accessed by same-sex spouses³⁴. That's on our Making Sen$e page.

1 vice   

n.坏事；恶习；[pl.]台钳，老虎钳；adj.副的

参考例句：

• He guarded himself against vice.他避免染上坏习惯。
• They are sunk in the depth of vice.他们堕入了罪恶的深渊。

2 patchwork   

n.混杂物；拼缝物

参考例句：

• That proposal is nothing else other than a patchwork.那个建议只是一个大杂烩而已。
• She patched new cloth to the old coat,so It'seemed mere patchwork. 她把新布初到那件旧上衣上，所以那件衣服看上去就象拼凑起来的东西。

3 demise   

n.死亡；v.让渡，遗赠，转让

参考例句：

• He praised the union's aims but predicted its early demise.他赞扬协会的目标，但预期这一协会很快会消亡。
• The war brought about the industry's sudden demise.战争道致这个行业就这么突然垮了。

4 tricky   

adj.狡猾的，奸诈的；(工作等)棘手的，微妙的

参考例句：

• I'm in a rather tricky position.Can you help me out?我的处境很棘手，你能帮我吗？
• He avoided this tricky question and talked in generalities.他回避了这个非常微妙的问题，只做了个笼统的表述。

5 remains   

n.剩余物，残留物；遗体，遗迹

参考例句：

• He ate the remains of food hungrily.他狼吞虎咽地吃剩余的食物。
• The remains of the meal were fed to the dog.残羹剩饭喂狗了。

6 promulgate   

v.宣布；传播；颁布（法令、新法律等）

参考例句：

• The king promulgate a decree.国王颁布了一项命令。
• The shipping industry promulgated a voluntary code.航运业对自律守则进行了宣传。

7 survivor   

n.生存者，残存者，幸存者

参考例句：

• The sole survivor of the crash was an infant.这次撞车的惟一幸存者是一个婴儿。
• There was only one survivor of the plane crash.这次飞机失事中只有一名幸存者。

8 prop   

vt.支撑；n.支柱，支撑物；支持者，靠山

参考例句：

• A worker put a prop against the wall of the tunnel to keep it from falling.一名工人用东西支撑住隧道壁好使它不会倒塌。
• The government does not intend to prop up declining industries.政府无意扶持不景气的企业。

9 valid   

adj.有确实根据的；有效的；正当的，合法的

参考例句：

• His claim to own the house is valid.他主张对此屋的所有权有效。
• Do you have valid reasons for your absence?你的缺席有正当理由吗？

10 trickier   

adj.狡猾的( tricky的比较级 )；（形势、工作等）复杂的；机警的；微妙的

参考例句：

• This is the general rule, but some cases are trickier than others. 以上是一般规则，但某些案例会比别的案例更为棘手。 来自互联网
• The lower the numbers go, the trickier the problems get. 武器的数量越低，问题就越复杂。 来自互联网

11 supreme   

adj.极度的，最重要的；至高的，最高的

参考例句：

• It was the supreme moment in his life.那是他一生中最重要的时刻。
• He handed up the indictment to the supreme court.他把起诉书送交最高法院。

12 deportation   

n.驱逐，放逐

参考例句：

• The government issued a deportation order against the four men.政府发出了对那4名男子的驱逐令。
• Years ago convicted criminals in England could face deportation to Australia.很多年以前，英国已定罪的犯人可能被驱逐到澳大利亚。

13 proceedings   

n.进程，过程，议程；诉讼(程序)；公报

参考例句：

• He was released on bail pending committal proceedings. 他交保获释正在候审。
• to initiate legal proceedings against sb 对某人提起诉讼

14 holder   

n.持有者，占有者；(台，架等)支持物

参考例句：

• The holder of the office of chairman is reponsible for arranging meetings.担任主席职位的人负责安排会议。
• That runner is the holder of the world record for the hundred-yard dash.那位运动员是一百码赛跑世界纪录的保持者。

15 celebrated   

adj.有名的，声誉卓著的

参考例句：

• He was soon one of the most celebrated young painters in England.不久他就成了英格兰最负盛名的年轻画家之一。
• The celebrated violinist was mobbed by the audience.观众团团围住了这位著名的小提琴演奏家。

16 defense   

n.防御，保卫；[pl.]防务工事；辩护，答辩

参考例句：

• The accused has the right to defense.被告人有权获得辩护。
• The war has impacted the area with military and defense workers.战争使那个地区挤满了军队和防御工程人员。

17 proponent   

n.建议者；支持者；adj.建议的

参考例句：

• Stapp became a strong early proponent of automobile seat belts.斯塔普是力主在汽车上采用座椅安全带的早期倡导者。
• Halsey was identified as a leading proponent of the values of progressive education.哈尔西被认为是进步教育价值观的主要支持者。

18 amendment   

n.改正，修正，改善，修正案

参考例句：

• The amendment was rejected by 207 voters to 143.这项修正案以207票对143票被否决。
• The Opposition has tabled an amendment to the bill.反对党已经就该议案提交了一项修正条款。

19 administratively   

[医]adv.行政上

参考例句：

• Administratively, the country is divided into counties. 这个国家在行政区划分上分为许多郡。 来自辞典例句
• Administratively permission enactment right is the foundation of administrative systems standardization. 摘要行政许可设定权是行政许可制度规范化的基础。 来自互联网

20 initially   

adv.最初，开始

参考例句：

• The ban was initially opposed by the US.这一禁令首先遭到美国的反对。
• Feathers initially developed from insect scales.羽毛最初由昆虫的翅瓣演化而来。

21 portrayed   

v.画像( portray的过去式和过去分词 )；描述；描绘；描画

参考例句：

• Throughout the trial, he portrayed himself as the victim. 在审讯过程中，他始终把自己说成是受害者。
• The author portrayed his father as a vicious drunkard. 作者把他父亲描绘成一个可恶的酒鬼。 来自《现代汉英综合大词典》

22 dual   

adj.双的；二重的，二元的

参考例句：

• The people's Republic of China does not recognize dual nationality for any Chinese national.中华人民共和国不承认中国公民具有双重国籍。
• He has dual role as composer and conductor.他兼作曲家及指挥的双重身分。

23 integration   

n.一体化，联合，结合

参考例句：

• We are working to bring about closer political integration in the EU.我们正在努力实现欧盟內部更加紧密的政治一体化。
• This was the greatest event in the annals of European integration.这是欧洲统一史上最重大的事件。

24 inevitable   

adj.不可避免的，必然发生的

参考例句：

• Mary was wearing her inevitable large hat.玛丽戴着她总是戴的那顶大帽子。
• The defeat had inevitable consequences for British policy.战败对英国政策不可避免地产生了影响。

25 spoke   

n.（车轮的）辐条；轮辐；破坏某人的计划；阻挠某人的行动 v.讲，谈（speak的过去式）；说；演说；从某种观点来说

参考例句：

• They sourced the spoke nuts from our company.他们的轮辐螺帽是从我们公司获得的。
• The spokes of a wheel are the bars that connect the outer ring to the centre.辐条是轮子上连接外圈与中心的条棒。

26 bureaucrats   

n.官僚( bureaucrat的名词复数 )；官僚主义；官僚主义者；官僚语言

参考例句：

• That is the fate of the bureaucrats, not the inspiration of statesmen. 那是官僚主义者的命运，而不是政治家的灵感。 来自辞典例句
• Big business and dozens of anonymous bureaucrats have as much power as Japan's top elected leaders. 大企业和许多不知名的官僚同日本选举出来的最高层领导者们的权力一样大。 来自辞典例句

27 override   

vt.不顾，不理睬，否决；压倒，优先于

参考例句：

• The welfare of a child should always override the wishes of its parents.孩子的幸福安康应该永远比父母的愿望来得更重要。
• I'm applying in advance for the authority to override him.我提前申请当局对他进行否决。

28 discriminate   

v.区别，辨别，区分；有区别地对待

参考例句：

• You must learn to discriminate between facts and opinions.你必须学会把事实和看法区分出来。
• They can discriminate hundreds of colours.他们能分辨上百种颜色。

29 authorizing   

授权，批准，委托( authorize的现在分词 )

参考例句：

• Letters of Marque: Take letters from a warning friendly power authorizing privateering. 私掠许可证：从某一个国家获得合法抢劫的证书。
• Formal phavee completion does not include authorizing the subsequent phavee. 阶段的正式完成不包括核准随后的阶段。

30 justification   

n.正当的理由；辩解的理由

参考例句：

• There's no justification for dividing the company into smaller units. 没有理由把公司划分成小单位。
• In the young there is a justification for this feeling. 在年轻人中有这种感觉是有理由的。

31 proponents   

n.（某事业、理论等的）支持者，拥护者( proponent的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• Reviewing courts were among the most active proponents of hybrid rulemaking procedures. 复审法院是最积极的混合型规则制定程序的建议者。 来自英汉非文学 - 行政法
• Proponents of such opinions were arrested as 'traitors. ' 提倡这种主张的人马上作为“卖国贼”逮捕起来。 来自辞典例句

32 discriminates   

分别，辨别，区分( discriminate的第三人称单数 )； 歧视，有差别地对待

参考例句：

• The new law discriminates against lower-paid workers. 这条新法律歧视低工资的工人。
• One test governs state legislation that discriminates against interstate commerce. 一个检验约束歧视州际商业的州立法。 来自英汉非文学 - 环境法 - 环境法

33 prohibition   

n.禁止；禁令，禁律

参考例句：

• The prohibition against drunken driving will save many lives.禁止酒后开车将会减少许多死亡事故。
• They voted in favour of the prohibition of smoking in public areas.他们投票赞成禁止在公共场所吸烟。

34 spouses   

n.配偶，夫或妻( spouse的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• Jobs are available for spouses on campus and in the community. 校园里和社区里有配偶可做的工作。 来自辞典例句
• An astonishing number of spouses-most particularly in the upper-income brackets-have no close notion of their husbands'paychecks. 相当大一部分妇女——特别在高收入阶层——并不很了解他们丈夫的薪金。 来自辞典例句