美国国家公共电台 NPR 批评特朗普干涉其工作 司法部长巴尔是否辞职成谜（在线收听）

We know that Attorney General William Barr did not appreciate President Trump publicly commenting on the work of the Justice Department.

我们知道，美国司法部长威廉·巴尔并不欣赏特朗普总统公开评论司法部工作这种行为。

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WILLIAM BARR: To have public statements and tweets made about the department, about people in the department, our men and women here, about cases pending in the department and about judges before whom we have cases make it impossible for me to do my job.

威廉·巴尔：发表涉及司法部、司法部工作人员、部门里的男男女女、部门待审案件以及判案法官的公开言论和推特，令我无法完成自己的工作。

KING: That was Barr talking to ABC last week. Now we're learning that he was so frustrated, he considered resigning. NPR's Ryan Lucas covers the Justice Department. He's in studio with me now. Hey, Ryan.

金：这是巴尔上周接受美国广播公司（简称ABC）的采访时所说。现在我们得知，他因心灰意冷而考虑辞职。NPR新闻的瑞安·卢卡斯负责涉及司法部的报道。我们将他请到了演播室。你好，瑞安。

RYAN LUCAS, BYLINE: Good morning.

瑞安·卢卡斯：早上好。

KING: So what have you learned here?

金：你了解到了哪些情况？

LUCAS: So an administration source tells me that Barr has told people close to him that he has considered quitting. This would be because of his growing frustration with the president's public statements, including tweets about the Justice Department and its cases.

卢卡斯：一名政府消息人士告诉我，巴尔已经向亲信透露，他考虑辞职。这可能是因为他对总统的公开言论越来越失望，这些言论包括总统就司法部及其案件发表的推特。

And we heard in that clip at the top that Barr has publicly urged the president to stop tweeting, stop publicly speaking about the department and its work. He said it undermines his ability to lead the Justice Department, his ability to assure the department's prosecutors and the courts that they try cases before — that the department is working with integrity.

我们从上面的采访片段可以得知，巴尔公开敦促总统停止发推，不要再公开谈论司法部及其工作。他说，总统的这种行为损害了他领导司法部的能力，损害了他向司法部检察官和审案法庭保证司法部秉承诚信的能力。

And I'm told that this is all stuff that Barr has told the president privately for weeks now. So this tension has been in the works. But late last night, the Justice Department spokeswoman put out a statement saying that Barr has no plans to resign.

我了解到，这些是巴尔这几周以来私下告知总统的。因此，这种紧张关系一直在酝酿之中。但昨天深夜，司法部发言人发表声明表示，巴尔没有辞职计划。

KING: OK. So if we were to try to pinpoint the beginning of this, a little over a week ago, President Trump tweeted that he disagreed with the DOJ's sentencing recommendations for his friend, Roger Stone. The DOJ then lowered the recommendation, but Barr said that was not on account of the president tweeting. But then some former DOJ officials started saying, oh, Barr should resign, 1,100 of them signed a letter saying he should resign. Is there anyone saying, no, William Barr should stay where he is?

金：好。如果我们尝试找到这一切的源头，那应该是一周多以前特朗普总统发表的推特，当时他称他不同意司法部对他朋友罗杰·斯通的量刑建议。随后司法部减少了刑期，但巴尔表示，这并不是因为总统的那条推特。但之后，一些前司法部官员开始表态，他们说，哦，巴尔应该辞职，1100名前司法部官员签署联合信，要求巴尔辞职。那有没有人认为威廉·巴尔应该继续担任司法部长？

LUCAS: So congressional Republicans have come out in strong support of the attorney general. They did so when he initially pushback against the president last week. They urged Trump to listen to Barr, to rein in his public comments about the Justice Department. And then yesterday, the Senate majority leader, Mitch McConnell, and the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Lindsey Graham — two very powerful Republicans in the Senate — put out a joint statement praising Barr and defending him.

卢卡斯：国会共和党人公开表态，大力支持司法部长。上周巴尔最开始反抗总统时，他们就曾表态支持。他们敦促特朗普听取巴尔的意见，控制他对司法部的公开评论。昨天，参议院两大重量级共和党议员——参议院多数党领袖米奇·麦康奈尔和参议院司法委员会主席林赛·格雷厄姆——发表联合声明，称赞巴尔并为巴尔辩护。

Now, you said more than 1,000. That number has grown, actually more than 2,000 now former...

你刚提到有1000多人要求巴尔辞职。其实这一数字一直在增长，现在已经有超过2000名……

KING: Really?

金：真的吗？

LUCAS: ...Justice Department officials who have signed this public letter calling on Barr to resign. Graham and McConnell, in their joint statement yesterday, said allegations that Barr has mishandled the department are unfounded. And they say that he is doing an excellent job serving the country.

卢卡斯：超过2000名前司法部官员签署联名信，要求巴尔辞职。格雷厄姆和麦康奈尔在昨天发表的联合声明中指出，有关巴尔对司法部领导不当的指控毫无根据。二人表示，巴尔在为国家服务方面完成得非常出色。

KING: Does it seem like President Trump is at all listening to William Barr when William Barr says you are making it harder for me to do my job?

金：这是否意味着当威廉·巴尔说你令我更难完成工作时，特朗普总统似乎会完全听取巴尔的意见？

LUCAS: He has certainly heard the words come out of the attorney general's mouth, but he does not appear to be listening to it — listening to them, no. And he admits as much. He was actually asked about this yesterday. Here's what he said.

卢卡斯：他肯定听到了司法部长所说的这句话，但他似乎不会听取他的意见。他也承认了这一点。实际上他昨天被问到了这个问题。下面是他的回答。

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PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: I do make his job harder. I do agree with that. I think that's true. He's a very straight shooter. We have a great attorney general, and he's working very hard.

唐纳德·特朗普总统：我确实让他的工作更难以完成。我同意这一点。我想那是真的。他是个坦白正直的人。我们有一位伟大的司法部长，他工作非常努力。

LUCAS: And the track record of this past week bears out the fact that Trump has not taken Barr's wishes to heart. The day after the attorney general's ABC interview, the president went on Twitter and declared that while he has not asked Barr to do anything in a criminal case, he could do so if he wanted to.

卢卡斯：从特朗普过去一周的表现来看，他并没有将巴尔的愿望放在心上。在司法部长巴尔接受美国广播公司采访的第二天，总统就在推特上表示，虽然他没有要求巴尔在刑事案件中做任何事，但如果他想他就可以这样做。

And then Trump has continued to tweet and talk publicly about Roger Stone's case. Stone, of course, is a longtime friend of the president. The president has gone after the judge in that case, Judge Amy Berman Jackson.

之后，特朗普继续在推特上公开谈论罗杰·斯通的案件。当然，斯通是总统的老朋友。总统抨击了负责审理这起案件的法官艾米·伯曼·杰克逊。

The reason that all of this matters is that it has raised questions about the politicization of the Justice Department and the fair administration of Justice. And that's why people are paying such close attention to all of this. Those are the stakes going forward on this.

这一切之所以重要，是因为其引发了人们对司法部政治化以及司法公正的质疑。这也是人们如此关注这一切的原因。这些是这起事件之后的风险所在。

KING: Roger Stone still being sentenced tomorrow, yeah?

金：罗杰·斯通仍将按计划在明天被判刑，对吧？

LUCAS: He's being sentenced tomorrow in federal court here in Washington, D.C. That is correct.

卢卡斯：他将于明天在华盛顿特区的联邦法庭被判刑。没错。

KING: NPR justice correspondent Ryan Lucas. Thanks, Ryan.

金：以上是NPR新闻的司法记者瑞安·卢卡斯带来的报道。谢谢你，瑞安。

LUCAS: Thank you.

卢卡斯：谢谢。