美国国家公共电台 NPR 嫌德国欠北约巨款 特朗普证实美国将从德国撤军（在线收听）

President Trump complained yesterday that Germany needs to contribute more to the NATO alliance.

特朗普总统昨天指责称，德国需要为北约联盟做出更多贡献。

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PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: They owe NATO billions of dollars. And they have to pay it.

唐纳德·特朗普总统：他们欠北约数十亿美元。他们必须还钱。

KING: And until they do, he said, the U.S. will pull thousands of troops out of Germany. The thing is no one appears to have told the Pentagon that. With me now, NPR's Rob Schmitz in Germany and Pentagon correspondent Tom Bowman. Good morning, guys.

金：总统表示，在他们还钱之前，美国将从德国撤离数千名士兵。而问题是，似乎没有人将这件事告知五角大楼。下面NPR新闻驻德国记者罗布·施密茨和NPR新闻驻五角大楼记者汤姆·鲍曼将和我们连线。早上好。

TOM BOWMAN, BYLINE: Good morning.

汤姆·鲍曼连线：早上好。

ROB SCHMITZ, BYLINE: Good morning.

罗布·施密茨连线：早上好。

KING: Tom, how did we get to this point?

金：汤姆，事态是如何演变到这一步的？

BOWMAN: Well, as far as I can tell, it all came out of the White House. And it appears there was little coordination with the Pentagon. And the president simply said, as we just heard, that the — Germany isn't paying enough for its own security. Of course, in the past, decisions over troop cuts, especially thousands of troops — you'd have a lot of discussion about it.

鲍曼：据我所知，这一消息出自白宫。白宫似乎和五角大楼几乎没有任何协调。正如我们刚才所听到的，总统只是简单地说，德国没有为其安全支付足够的资金。当然，以前有关撤军的决定也有过很多次讨论，尤其是涉及数千名士兵的撤军决定。

KING: What is the Pentagon actually saying?

金：五角大楼有何表态？

BOWMAN: Well, the odd thing is the Pentagon isn't saying much. Officials are referring questions to the White House. Pentagon officials have only said there's no official order yet. Now, I heard about it from Capitol Hill, where even Republicans are against it. Two dozen Republicans wrote a letter to Trump saying they opposed it, saying it would undermine NATO. And with a resurgent Russia, this is certainly not the time to cut back on U.S. forces.

鲍曼：奇怪的是五角大楼没有太多回应。官员将问题推给白宫。五角大楼官员只说现在还没有正式命令。我从国会山了解到，就连共和党人都反对撤军。24名共和党人联合致信特朗普，表达他们的反对意见，称此举会削弱北约。而且随着俄罗斯的复兴，现在肯定不是削减美军的时候。

KING: Oh, my goodness. So there will certainly be some debate over this, it seems. Rob, I wonder — there in Berlin, what is the German government saying?

金：天哪。这似乎肯定会引发争论。罗布，我想知道在柏林，德国政府作何回应？

SCHMITZ: Yeah, not much either. You know, a German Defense Ministry spokesperson has given us a vague statement that says Germany and U.S. have collaborated well over the years on missions and NATO exercises and that it assumes this will continue to be the case in the future. Last week, German Defense Minister Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer had this to say.

施密茨：德国政府也没有太多回应。德国国防部发言人给出了一份含糊不清的声明，称多年以来德国和美国在执行任务和北约演习方面合作良好，而且假定未来仍会继续这样。上周，德国国防部长安妮格雷特·克兰普-卡伦鲍尔发表了下列讲话。

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ANNEGRET KRAMP-KARRENBAUER: (Speaking in German).

安妮格雷特·克兰普-卡伦鲍尔：（用德语讲话）。

SCHMITZ: And she's saying here, Noel, that U.S. soldiers stationed in Germany serve NATO's interests but also U.S. security interests. And that's the reason that they work together.

施密茨：诺埃尔，她说，驻扎在德国的美军为北约利益服务，同时也为美国的安全利益服务。这就是他们合作的原因。

KING: Rob, is it true what President Trump says — that Germany does not pay its NATO bills?

金：罗布，特朗普总统说德国没有支付北约账单是真的吗？

SCHMITZ: Well, you know, first off, NATO does not send bills to its 30 member states in the mail.

施密茨：首先，北约不会通过邮件向30个成员国发送账单。

KING: (Laughter) OK.

金：（笑）好。

SCHMITZ: But President Trump and presidents before him have been frustrated by Germany's level of defense spending, though Trump has been more belligerent about it. In 2014, NATO members agreed that by 2024, each member state would spend 2% of their GDP on defense. Now, Germany spends around 1.3% of its GDP now and says it's on its way to 2% but that it won't be able to do that until 2031. And that's irked President Trump.

施密茨：但特朗普总统以及美国前几届总统一直对德国的国防支出水平感到失望，不过特朗普在这方面更具挑衅性。2014年，北约成员国一致同意，到2024年前所有成员国都要将防务开支提高到本国国内生产总值（简称GDP）的2%。目前德国的支出约占其GDP的1.3%，德国表示其正在逐步将支出提高到2%，但可能要到2031年才能实现。而这激怒了特朗普总统。

KING: OK. Tom, we have discussed this before. Sometimes, the president just says things and then doesn't do them. Do you have a sense of what the chances are that these troops will actually be withdrawn from Germany, that this will happen?

金：好。汤姆，我们以前讨论过这个问题。有时，总统只是发表一些言论，但并不会去做。你认为美军从德国撤离的可能性有多大？

BOWMAN: You know, it's hard to say. And judging from what the president said — that Germany's not paying enough for defense — this could simply be a negotiating tactic to get Germany to spend more. And the president has made similar complaints in the past against countries including South Korea. So at this point, we really just don't know. But you're right. Oftentimes, he'll make these pronouncements — you know, causes a flurry of action through the government. And then in the end, nothing really happens.

鲍曼：这很难说。从总统的言论来看，即德国没有支付足够的防务费用，这可能只是一种让德国增加开支的谈判策略。总统以前也对韩国等国家提出过类似的指责。现在，我们真的不知道。不过你说得没错。他经常发表这些声明，引发政府内的一系列行动。但最后，什么都没发生。

KING: Rob, let me throw this last one to you. NATO is a 70-year-old alliance. What does this mean? Does this actually pose a threat to that alliance?

金：罗布，最后一个问题要问你。北约是一个有70年历史的联盟。这意味着什么？这是否会对北约联盟构成威胁？

SCHMITZ: Well, you know, it's interesting — the fact that President Trump did not bother to tell Germany or any other NATO member state that he was going to do this shows how dismissive the U.S. has become about its allies and its international commitments. If this troop drawdown actually does happen, it will undoubtedly damage the cohesion of NATO. And it'll send a message both to U.S. allies as well as adversaries, like Russia and China, that America's commitment to NATO and its mission is wavering.

施密茨：这值得注意，特朗普总统并未费心告诉德国或任何其他北约成员国他计划撤军，这表明美国对其盟友和国际承诺变得有多不屑一顾。如果撤军真的发生，无疑会损害北约的凝聚力。这将向美国的盟友以及俄罗斯和中国等对手发出一个信息，即美国对北约及其使命的承诺正在动摇。

KING: Rob Schmitz in Germany and Tom Bowman, who covers the Pentagon. Thanks for the reporting, guys.

金：以上是NPR新闻驻德国记者罗布·施密茨和五角大楼记者汤姆·鲍曼带来的报道。谢谢你们带来的报道。

BOWMAN: You're welcome.

鲍曼：不客气。

SCHMITZ: Thank you.

施密茨：谢谢。