PBS高端访谈:特朗普威胁到美国民主（在线收听）

JUDY WOODRUFF: And we continue our look at the president's actions and state of the Republican Party with former Arizona GOP Senator Jeff Flake. Senator Flake, thank you so much for being with us. So, we have the president still refusing to concede, insisting that he won, in constant motion to try to overturn the results today, meeting with state officials from Michigan. What do you make of all this?

FMR. SEN. JEFF FLAKE (R-AZ): Well, frankly, it's just awful. It's awful for the country. And for Republicans, it's terrible as well. So I don't understand it. I'm grateful that some Republicans are finally starting to speak up. I wish more of them would. This is unprecedented. And it just does not speak well, obviously, for the president or for the party.

JUDY WOODRUFF: We heard there are some who are saying this is literally dangerous for our democracy. Do you share that view?

FMR. SEN. JEFF FLAKE: I'm sorry. We're cutting up here.

JUDY WOODRUFF: I think we're having a connection -- having a connection issue. Let me try one more time, speaking with former Senator Jeff Flake of Arizona. Senator, do you believe this is dangerous for our democracy, what the president is trying to do?

FMR. SEN. JEFF FLAKE: Sorry. Still -- I'm sorry. I didn't hear the question. We cut out for a second. Go ahead.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Let me -- let me just try -- apologies. Let me try one more time. It's that technology. Is this dangerous for democracy?

FMR. SEN. JEFF FLAKE: It is. It is, when you have the rest of the world looking at us and watching this closely, frankly, and when we try to be an example for the rest of the world. If other countries were doing what the president is doing, if other leaders were doing what the president is doing, we would be very critical. We have been in the past. And so this doesn't -- doesn't speak well for us. It's a very difficult time. I hope we can get past it quickly. And I'm confident we will by the time the inauguration rolls around.

JUDY WOODRUFF: The president, Senator Flake, insisting that what his lawyer Rudy Giuliani is saying is true. We heard Giuliani yesterday making false claims about conspiracy theories about Venezuela, about the Clintons, and on and on. Is any of that -- does any of it have any connection to anything that's real?

FMR. SEN. JEFF FLAKE: I'm sorry, I probably only heard part of the question there. But, yes, these claims are demonstrably false. They're so far out that I don't know how anybody, frankly, can believe them. But the president knows that some Republicans will. And it's similar to the birtherism theory. I don't think the president ever believed that Barack Obama was not a citizen, but he knew that a lot of Republicans would, and he used it. And he's doing the same thing now.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Senator Jeff Flake, we would love to talk to you a little bit more, but I think we are having technical problems. Thank you so much for talking with us.

朱迪·伍德乐夫：我们继续关注总统的动向以及前亚利桑那州共和党参议员杰夫·弗莱克对共和党的看法。弗莱克参议员，非常感谢您的到来。所以，总统还是拒绝让步，坚持赢的人是他，而且不断采取行动想要推翻现在的结果，和密歇根州的官员会面。您是怎么看的？

参议员杰夫·弗莱克（共和党—亚利桑那州）：嗯，真的太糟糕了，对国家来说很糟糕，对共和党人来说也很糟糕。我并不理解，不过好在很多共和党人已经开始发声了，我希望能够有越来越多的人出来发声。真的以前没出现过这种情况。显然这对总统或者对于这个政党来说，这样是无法很好地说明问题的。

朱迪·伍德乐夫：有些人表示这会威胁到我们的民主，您同意该观点吗？

参议员杰夫·弗莱克：抱歉，断线了。

朱迪·伍德乐夫：网络好像有问题。由于网络问题，我将重新进行连接。现在是亚利桑那州前参议员杰夫·弗莱克访谈时间。参议员，您同意“这会威胁到我们的民主”这一观点吗？

参议员杰夫·弗莱克：抱歉，还是……抱歉，我没听到问题，刚刚连接断了。再说一下吧。

朱迪·伍德乐夫：真的很抱歉，我再试一下。技术问题。这会威胁到我们的民主吗？

参议员杰夫·弗莱克：会的。坦白说，我们正努力成为世界其他国家的榜样，全世界都在密切关注我们、密切关注这件事，在这个时候这确实会威胁到我们的民主。如果其他国家效仿总统的做法，如果其他领导人效仿总统的做法，那么我们会严厉批评。我们已经成为了过去，所以这对我们来说并不好。现在是极度困难时期，我希望我们能够尽快渡过。等到就职典礼时我们就能渡过了，我对此有信心。

朱迪·伍德乐夫：弗莱克参议员，总统坚称他的律师鲁迪·朱利安尼所说的是真的。昨天我们听到朱利安尼对委内瑞拉、克林顿夫妇的阴谋论做出了错误的声明等等。这跟事实有什么联系吗？

参议员杰夫·弗莱克：抱歉，问题我可能没听全。但是，没错，这些说法显然是错的，坦白说应该没人会信这个，但是总统知道一些共和党人会信，这就类似于出生论。我觉得总统以前不会相信巴拉克·奥巴马不是美国公民，但他知道很多共和党人会相信，他就是利用了这一点，现在又这么做。

朱迪·伍德乐夫：杰夫·弗莱克参议员，本来希望能和您再多谈谈，无奈有技术问题。非常感谢您能和我们交谈。