PBS高端访谈:特朗普"电话门"已犯法（在线收听）

JUDY WOODRUFF: We return now to President Trump's controversial hour-long phone call with Georgia's secretary of state this weekend. It raised a number of legal questions. For some answers, we turn again to Rick Hasen. He's an election law professor at the University of California, Irvine. He's also author of the book "Election Meltdown." Professor Hasen, welcome back to the "NewsHour." As somebody who studies election law, what was your reaction when you listened to this?

RICK HASEN, University of California, Irvine: Well, my first reaction was, I can't believe it's January and we are still talking about the 2020 election, not the run-off, but the actual election that we held in November. I think that the statements of the president were outrageous. He was clearly trying to pressure the Georgia secretary of state to manufacture votes to flip the results of the election, based on no evidence. It was really the kind of election fraud that he has been railing about for years. An here we have the whole thing on tape. It's just -- it is a very sad moment for American democracy right now.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Very sad. And you said clearly kind of pressure the secretary of state. Are there legal questions about what the president did? Did he cross the line?

RICK HASEN: I think there is a good argument to be made that he violated both federal law, which prevents one person from trying to get another to procure fraudulent votes, as well as Georgia law, which makes election fraud, ballot box stuffing a crime. In both of these cases, I think you have pretty good circumstances standings evidence from the call itself that the president was asking for there to be ballot box stuffing. I think the real question is one of intent. And it is kind of hard to tell. It was an hour-long call, kind of a meandering conversation from the president. The real question is, does he believe the kind of wild conspiracy theories that he has been spewing. If he does, then maybe you could make the argument he doesn't have the intent that would be necessary to show that he was trying to commit fraud. But I think this would be really a question for a jury. Did he have the intent to defraud the people of Georgia of their right to have a fair election? And it is a serious question that prosecutors on both the federal level and in Georgia on the state level should be looking at.

JUDY WOODRUFF: What are the most concerning aspects of the call? You have the president saying, I want you to find -- he says, "Fellows, I need 11,000 votes," you know, or just exactly the number over the difference between him and president-elect Biden. And you -- what else did you hear him say that is most concerning, potentially, from a legal standpoint?

RICK HASEN: Well, he was talking about that he was potentially doing this in other states. We're going to have a counting of the votes in Congress that will happen on Wednesday. The president has called for wild protests in the state capital -- in the country's capital on Wednesday. All of it seems to be geared towards maximum chaos, towards making the -- what by all indications, under our legal rules, appears to be a done deal, that Joe Biden is the next president, into something that is up for grabs. I don't think it is going to work in terms of how the Senate and House are going to count the votes. It might lead to a delay. But it does suggest that he is still not accepting the election results. And we don't know. The next two weeks promise to be a very dangerous time for American democracy, if he continues to resist what courts and election officials have gone through to show that there is not really any question that Joe Biden has won this election.

JUDY WOODRUFF: And, just quickly, back on thee language the president used on this call, when he said to Secretary of State Raffensperger in Georgia, he said, you're taking a big risk in what you are doing, I mean, it had a threatening tone to it.

RICK HASEN: Right. It sounds like almost a kind of extortion that could be going on here: You know, if you don't do this, you might face criminal liability. I mean, the whole call was -- it kind of alternated between trying to flatter the secretary of state and trying to threaten him to get what he wants, which is the manufacturing of votes. And that really is about as bad as it gets when it comes to conducting an election, is trying to stuff the ballot box.

JUDY WOODRUFF: And I just -- again, making notes on some other -- he said, "There is nothing wrong with saying, you know, that you have recalculated." The suggestion is, the president is saying, find something that didn't happen.

RICK HASEN: Right. And, you know, this election, it was conducted using voting machines that the president has criticized. It was recounted by hand. So, if there had been any problem with the voting machines, it would have been found through the hand recount. And there was -- there were investigations by the Georgia Bureau of Investigations. There have been court cases. There has been no finding of massive fraud anywhere in the country, not in Georgia, not anywhere, that would justify finding additional votes to help the president. This is a pure political ploy to try to steal the election.

JUDY WOODRUFF: And we heard Georgia elections officials say pretty much that in his news conference this afternoon, saying what the president said was completely fabricated. Professor Rick Hasen, professor of election law, thank you very much.

RICK HASEN: Thank you.

朱迪·伍德乐夫：现在我们来看一下这周末特朗普总统与格鲁吉亚国务卿的那通长达一小时的备具争议的电话，它引发了一些法律问题。为了寻找答案，我们再次连线里克·哈森。他是加州大学欧文分校的选举法教授，也是《选举崩溃》一书的作者。哈森教授，欢迎回到“新闻一小时”。作为一名选举法研究人员，当你听到这个时，你的第一反应是什么？

里克·哈森，加州大学欧文分校：嗯，我的第一反应是，真不敢相信现在已经是1月了，我们却还在谈论2020年的选举，不是决选，而是我们在11月举行的真正的选举。我觉得总统的声明很无耻，显然他是在向乔治亚州国务卿施压，在没有任何证据的情况下找出选票，改变选举结果。这其实就是他多年来一直在痛斥的那种选举舞弊。现在我们把整个过程都录下来了。对美国民主来说，这是一个非常悲伤的时刻。

朱迪·伍德乐夫：非常悲哀，你说得很清楚，这是对国务卿的一种施压。那么总统的所作所为是否涉及法律问题？他越界了吗？

里克·哈森：我认为他违反了联邦法律和乔治亚州法律，联邦法律禁止一方试图让另一方获取虚假选票，而乔治亚州法律规定选举舞弊和谎报选票是犯罪行为。在这两种情况下，我认为有足够的证据能够证明总统在要求谎报选票。我觉得真正的问题是他的意图，这不太好分辨，因为那是一通长达一小时的电话，有点像总统的闲聊。真正的问题是，他相信自己一直在说的那些疯狂的阴谋论吗。如果他相信，那么你可以认为他没有必要证明自己试图诈骗的意图。但我觉得这应该是陪审团的问题。他是否有意欺骗格鲁吉亚人民进行公平选举的权利？这是一个严重的问题，联邦一级的检察官和格鲁吉亚州一级的检察官都应该关注这个问题。

朱迪·伍德乐夫：这通电话最让人担心的是什么呢？他说，“伙计们，我需要11000张选票”，或者这刚好是他和当选总统拜登之间差的那些选票。从法律的角度来看，他还说了什么最让人忧虑的事情？

里克·哈森：他说他有可能在其他州也这么做了。我们将在周三对国会的投票进行统计。总统呼吁周三在州首府举行疯狂的抗议活动，所有这些似乎都是为了最大限度地制造混乱，为了使……种种迹象表明，在我们的法律下，乔·拜登将成为下一任总统似乎已成定局，已经触手可得。我不认为它会在参议院和众议院如何计算选票方面起作用，这可能会导致延期，不过这确实表明他还是不接受选举结果。我们也不清楚。法院和选举官员已经证明乔·拜登毫无疑问将赢得这次选举，如果他继续抵制的话，那么接下来的两周对美国民主来说将会非常危险。

朱迪·伍德乐夫：还有，我们快速解读一下总统在电话里的语气，他对乔治亚州对国务卿拉芬斯珀格说：你这么做是在玩儿火。我想说，他这个语气是带有威胁性质的。

里克·哈森：是的。听着就像是敲诈勒索：你知道，如果你不这么做，那么你可能会面临刑事责任。整段通话都是在试图讨好国务卿以及试图威胁他以得到他想要的，即“找出选票”。选举时谎报选票真的是最糟糕的事情。

朱迪·伍德乐夫：我……还记了其他一些……他说：“说你重新计算了一下不会有什么问题，你知道，你已经计算过了。”所以，总统的意思就是“无中生有一些东西”。

里克·哈森：没错，你知道，这次选举是使用投票机进行的，总统批评了这一点。票是手工进行重新计算的，所以，投票机有任何问题都可以通过手工重新计票来发现。乔治亚州调查局对此进行了调查，也有过法庭诉讼。在美国的任何地方，无论是格鲁吉亚还是其他任何地方，都没有出现过大规模的舞弊行为，这就说明我们帮总统弄到更多的选票是合理的，这纯粹就是企图窃取选举的政治伎俩。

朱迪·伍德乐夫：我们听到格鲁吉亚选举官员在今天下午的新闻发布会上说总统所说的完全是捏造的。里克·哈森教授，选举法教授，非常感谢。

里克·哈森：谢谢。