美国国家公共电台 NPR Deborah Lipstadt: How Do You Stand Up To A Holocaust Denier?

 

GUY RAZ, HOST:

It's the TED¹ Radio Hour from NPR. I'm Guy Raz. And on the show today, Truth and Lies - ideas about navigating² a world where facts seem to be up for debate, whether it's science or history or even a presidential election and why some people refuse to believe things that most of us would say are undeniable.

When you first heard this idea about Holocaust³ denial, what'd you think?

DEBORAH LIPSTADT: I laughed.

RAZ: Really?

LIPSTADT: I laughed. I said, you know, those are like the flat-Earth people or the Elvis-is-alive people. It was just stupid.

RAZ: This is Deborah Lipstadt. She's a professor of history at Emory University in Atlanta where she focuses on the Holocaust. And she remembers hearing about Holocaust deniers back in the 1980s. And even though she thought the idea was absurd, she was curious about who these people were. So she started to look at their arguments.

LIPSTADT: Oh, they were saying things like gas chambers⁴ were an impossibility. They were saying that survivors⁶ were making this all up. And if there were Jews who were somehow persecuted⁷, they deserved it for other reasons. And they did something else. They found a new name, revisionists, simply out to revise mistakes in history. I described them as wolves in sheep's clothing.

This was not a cognitive⁸ lapse⁹. They came to this topic with an anti-Semitic view so that the prism through which their view of history, of this history, was refracted, was shaped, was bent¹⁰, was a anti-Semitic, racist¹¹, pro-Nazi prism.

RAZ: But the deniers made themselves appear legitimate¹². They published a journal, they founded an institute, they used footnotes. And Deborah felt the best way to expose them was to write a book about them. And what happened next? Here's Deborah Lipstadt on the TED stage.

(SOUNDBITE OF TED TALK)

LIPSTADT: I published my work. The book was published, "Denying The Holocaust: The Growing Assault On Truth And Memory," and I was done with those folks and ready to move on. Then came the letter from Penguin¹³ U.K. I opened the letter, and it informed me that David Irving was bringing a libel suit against me in the United Kingdom for calling him a Holocaust denier.

Who was David Irving? David Irving was a writer of historical works, most of them about World War II. And virtually all of those works took a position that the Nazis¹⁴ were really not so bad. And the Allies were really not so good. He knew the documents, he knew the facts, but he somehow twisted them to get this opinion. This was a man who not only was a Holocaust denier but seemed quite proud of it. Here was a man, and I quote, who said, "I'm going to sink the battleship Auschwitz."

Here was a man who pointed¹⁵ to the number tattooed¹⁶ on a survivor⁵'s arm and said, how much money have you made from having that number tattooed on your arm? This was not a man who seemed at all ashamed or reticent¹⁷ about being a Holocaust denier.

RAZ: What did the book say about him?

LIPSTADT: I was pretty harsh on him in the book. But if I devoted¹⁸ 300 words to him, that's a lot. You know, there were a couple of references, brief references. But I think he chose me - because other people had written very negative things about him, even more extreme than I had written.

But he waited until, I think, an American, someone from, as the Brits say, across the pond, wrote about him because to defend yourself against libel charges in the United Kingdom is very onerous¹⁹ and very expensive 'cause the burden of proof is on you to prove the truth of what you wrote, unlike in the United States where if David Irving had sued me here, he would have had to prove the falsehood.

RAZ: Why would he deny something so painfully and obviously true?

LIPSTADT: My sense was that he loves to be a contrarian. He loves to do the, quote, unquote, "outrageous²⁰." He was very enamored of Adolf Hitler. So I think there were a lot of things operating there, including a desire to take a contrary point of view because he knew that would get him a lot of attention.

(SOUNDBITE OF TED TALK)

LIPSTADT: Now, lots of my academic colleagues counseled me, oh, Deborah, just ignore it. They said, who's going to believe him anyway? But here was the problem. If I didn't fight, he would win by default. And if he won by default, he could then legitimately²¹ say my David Irving version of the Holocaust is a legitimate version. And what is that version? There was no plan to murder the Jews.

There were no gas chambers. There were no mass shootings. Hitler had nothing to do with any suffering that went on. And the Jews have made this all up. I couldn't let that stand and ever face a survivor or a child of survivors. I couldn't let that stand and consider myself a responsible historian. So we fought. Spoiler alert, we won.

(APPLAUSE)

LIPSTADT: The judge found David Irving to be a racist, an anti-Semite, he lied, he distorted. And most importantly, he did it deliberately²². We showed a pattern in over 25 different major instances, not small things. Many of us in this audience write books. We always make mistakes. That's why we're glad to have second editions. But these always moved in the same direction - blame the Jews, exonerate²³ the Nazis. What we did is follow his footnotes back to his sources.

And what did we find? Not in most cases and not in the preponderance of cases but in every single instance where he made some reference to the Holocaust, that his supposed evidence was distorted, half-truth, date changed, sequence changed. We didn't prove what happened. We proved that what he said happened - and by extension, all deniers, because he either quotes them or they get their arguments from him - is not true. They don't have the evidence to prove it.

RAZ: Deborah, during that period of time, which I guess was, like, six years of your life going back and forth²⁴ to London and facing this man in court, was it hard for you? I mean, did it take an emotional toll²⁵ on you?

LIPSTADT: It was very difficult because every day, there'd be survivors in the courtroom. But it wasn't just from survivors. One day, David Irving was in court. And what deniers like to do - because they have to explain how when the Allies got to the concentration camps, how come they found people there who looked more like cadavers²⁶ than like real people? So what deniers say, David Irving amongst them, is that, oh, they were being very well taken care of by the Germans.

But then the Allies bombed the pharmaceutical²⁷ factories, the food factories, the roads leading to the camp. And the Germans couldn't take care of them, so that's why they looked so terrible. While he was making that claim and Richard Evans was on the stand, our lead historical witness, and challenging him very strongly on it, I happened to look at the gallery.

And there was an elderly gentleman. I would say he was in his late 70s. And he looked very distressed²⁸. I didn't know what it was about, and I didn't pay it too much mind. And at the end of that session, I saw that he was standing²⁹ there. He came over to me and he said, Madam, I was part of the British army that liberated³⁰ the camps. And, Madam, it galls³¹ me to hear that man say that what we found in the camps was because the Germans couldn't take care of these people, he said.

Then he paused, he said, Madam, get the bastard³², Madam. And he walked off. And that was very powerful too. It just gave me a sense that there were a lot of people who felt a lot was riding on this case.

RAZ: When you think about the outcome of that trial, was that it? Was it done? Was it - at that point, were you able to sort of breathe out and say, OK, Holocaust denial is - has just been quashed?

LIPSTADT: No. I'm smart enough and I'm - sorrily, I have, you know, the wisdom of experience to know that it hadn't been totally quashed. I knew it wasn't over. I didn't think we would see the prejudice, the anti-Semitism resurrected, come to life again the way we're seeing it now.

RAZ: What are you seeing now?

LIPSTADT: Look, we're not seeing anything that compares to a Holocaust. We're not seeing anything that compares to the anti-Semitism of decades past. But we're seeing a, what I call, soft-core denial, the not denying the facts but rewriting the facts. And what deniers are trying to do - and it's not just deniers. It's other groups as well. It's white supremacists.

It's people who make all sorts of extreme claims about vaccines³³, about climate or whatever - to take totally unfounded statements, which we might call lies, dress them up as edgy³⁴, extreme opinions. And once they become part of the conversation, then they encroach upon the facts. And it is a modus operandi that I saw amongst deniers and little did I ever imagine I would see it in so many other arenas³⁵ as well.

(SOUNDBITE OF TED TALK)

LIPSTADT: So why is my story more than just the story of a quirky, long, six-year difficult lawsuit³⁶, an American professor being dragged into a courtroom? What message does it have? I think in the context of the question of truth, it has a very significant message because today, we live in an age where truth is on the defensive³⁷. We must go on the offensive.

When someone makes an outrageous claim even though they may hold one of the highest offices in the land, if not the world, we must say to them, where's the proof? Where's the evidence? We must hold their feet to the fire. We must not treat it as if their lies are the same as the facts. Truth and fact are under assault. The job ahead of us is great. The time to fight is short. We must act now. Thank you very much.

(APPLAUSE)

RAZ: Professor Deborah Lipstadt. She teaches history at Emory University. By the way, there's a movie about the trial. It's called "Denial." You can find Deborah's full talk at ted.com. On the show today, Truth and Lies, ideas about living in a world where facts seem to be up for debate. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to the TED Radio Hour from NPR.

1 ted   

vt.翻晒，撒，撒开

参考例句：

• The invaders gut ted the village.侵略者把村中财物洗劫一空。
• She often teds the corn when it's sunny.天好的时候她就翻晒玉米。

2 navigating   

v.给（船舶、飞机等）引航，导航( navigate的现在分词 )；（从海上、空中等）横越；横渡；飞跃

参考例句：

• These can also be very useful when navigating time-based documents, such as video and audio. 它对于和时间有关的文档非常有用，比如视频和音频文档。 来自About Face 3交互设计精髓
• Vehicles slowed to a crawl on city roads, navigating slushy snow. 汽车在市区路上行驶缓慢，穿越泥泞的雪地。 来自互联网

3 holocaust   

n.大破坏；大屠杀

参考例句：

• The Auschwitz concentration camp always remind the world of the holocaust.奥辛威茨集中营总是让世人想起大屠杀。
• Ahmadinejad is denying the holocaust because he's as brutal as Hitler was.内贾德否认大屠杀，因为他像希特勒一样残忍。

4 chambers   

n.房间( chamber的名词复数 )；（议会的）议院；卧室；会议厅

参考例句：

• The body will be removed into one of the cold storage chambers. 尸体将被移到一个冷冻间里。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• Mr Chambers's readable book concentrates on the middle passage: the time Ransome spent in Russia. Chambers先生的这本值得一看的书重点在中间：Ransome在俄国的那几年。 来自互联网

5 survivor   

n.生存者，残存者，幸存者

参考例句：

• The sole survivor of the crash was an infant.这次撞车的惟一幸存者是一个婴儿。
• There was only one survivor of the plane crash.这次飞机失事中只有一名幸存者。

6 survivors   

幸存者，残存者，生还者( survivor的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• The survivors were adrift in a lifeboat for six days. 幸存者在救生艇上漂流了六天。
• survivors clinging to a raft 紧紧抓住救生筏的幸存者

7 persecuted   

（尤指宗教或政治信仰的）迫害(~sb. for sth.)( persecute的过去式和过去分词 )； 烦扰，困扰或骚扰某人

参考例句：

• Throughout history, people have been persecuted for their religious beliefs. 人们因宗教信仰而受迫害的情况贯穿了整个历史。
• Members of these sects are ruthlessly persecuted and suppressed. 这些教派的成员遭到了残酷的迫害和镇压。

8 cognitive   

adj.认知的，认识的，有感知的

参考例句：

• As children grow older,their cognitive processes become sharper.孩子们越长越大，他们的认知过程变得更为敏锐。
• The cognitive psychologist is like the tinker who wants to know how a clock works.认知心理学者倒很像一个需要通晓钟表如何运转的钟表修理匠。

9 lapse   

n.过失，流逝，失效，抛弃信仰，间隔；vi.堕落，停止，失效，流逝；vt.使失效

参考例句：

• The incident was being seen as a serious security lapse.这一事故被看作是一次严重的安全疏忽。
• I had a lapse of memory.我记错了。

10 bent   

n.爱好，癖好；adj.弯的；决心的，一心的

参考例句：

• He was fully bent upon the project.他一心扑在这项计划上。
• We bent over backward to help them.我们尽了最大努力帮助他们。

11 racist   

n.种族主义者，种族主义分子

参考例句：

• a series of racist attacks 一连串的种族袭击行为
• His speech presented racist ideas under the guise of nationalism. 他的讲话以民族主义为幌子宣扬种族主义思想。

12 legitimate   

adj.合法的，合理的，合乎逻辑的；v.使合法

参考例句：

• Sickness is a legitimate reason for asking for leave.生病是请假的一个正当的理由。
• That's a perfectly legitimate fear.怀有这种恐惧完全在情理之中。

13 penguin   

n.企鹅

参考例句：

• The penguin is a flightless bird.企鹅是一种不会飞的鸟。
• He walked with an awkward gait like a penguin.他走路的步子难看得就像企鹅。

14 Nazis   

n.（德国的）纳粹党员( Nazi的名词复数 )；纳粹主义

参考例句：

• The Nazis worked them over with gun butts. 纳粹分子用枪托毒打他们。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• The Nazis were responsible for the mass murder of Jews during World War Ⅱ. 纳粹必须为第二次世界大战中对犹太人的大屠杀负责。 来自《简明英汉词典》

15 pointed   

adj.尖的，直截了当的

参考例句：

• He gave me a very sharp pointed pencil.他给我一支削得非常尖的铅笔。
• She wished to show Mrs.John Dashwood by this pointed invitation to her brother.她想通过对达茨伍德夫人提出直截了当的邀请向她的哥哥表示出来。

16 tattooed   

v.刺青，文身( tattoo的过去式和过去分词 )；连续有节奏地敲击；作连续有节奏的敲击

参考例句：

• He had tattooed his wife's name on his upper arm. 他把妻子的名字刺在上臂上。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• The sailor had a heart tattooed on his arm. 那水兵在手臂上刺上一颗心。 来自《现代英汉综合大词典》

17 reticent   

adj.沉默寡言的；言不如意的

参考例句：

• He was reticent about his opinion.他有保留意见。
• He was extremely reticent about his personal life.他对自己的个人生活讳莫如深。

18 devoted   

adj.忠诚的，忠实的，热心的，献身于...的

参考例句：

• He devoted his life to the educational cause of the motherland.他为祖国的教育事业贡献了一生。
• We devoted a lengthy and full discussion to this topic.我们对这个题目进行了长时间的充分讨论。

19 onerous   

adj.繁重的

参考例句：

• My household duties were not particularly onerous.我的家务活并不繁重。
• This obligation sometimes proves onerous.这一义务有时被证明是艰巨的。

20 outrageous   

adj.无理的，令人不能容忍的

参考例句：

• Her outrageous behaviour at the party offended everyone.她在聚会上的无礼行为触怒了每一个人。
• Charges for local telephone calls are particularly outrageous.本地电话资费贵得出奇。

21 legitimately   

ad.合法地；正当地，合理地

参考例句：

• The radio is legitimately owned by the company. 该电台为这家公司所合法拥有。
• She looked for nothing save what might come legitimately and without the appearance of special favour. 她要的并不是男人们的额外恩赐，而是合法正当地得到的工作。 来自英汉文学 - 嘉莉妹妹

22 deliberately   

adv.审慎地；蓄意地；故意地

参考例句：

• The girl gave the show away deliberately.女孩故意泄露秘密。
• They deliberately shifted off the argument.他们故意回避这个论点。

23 exonerate   

v.免除责任，确定无罪

参考例句：

• Nothing can exonerate her from that.任何解释都难辞其咎。
• There is no reason to exonerate him from the ordinary duties of a citizen.没有理由免除他做公民应尽的义务。

24 forth   

adv.向前；向外，往外

参考例句：

• The wind moved the trees gently back and forth.风吹得树轻轻地来回摇晃。
• He gave forth a series of works in rapid succession.他很快连续发表了一系列的作品。

25 toll   

n.过路(桥)费；损失，伤亡人数；v.敲(钟)

参考例句：

• The hailstone took a heavy toll of the crops in our village last night.昨晚那场冰雹损坏了我们村的庄稼。
• The war took a heavy toll of human life.这次战争夺去了许多人的生命。

26 cadavers   

n.尸体( cadaver的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• Human cadavers were the only known source of hGH, and demand was intense. 人类尸体是hGH已知的惟一来源，而且需求广泛。 来自英汉非文学 - 生命科学 - 口蹄疫疯牛病
• Will there be enough cadavers for each group this term? 这个学期每一个组都有足够的尸体吗？ 来自电影对白

27 pharmaceutical   

adj.药学的，药物的；药用的，药剂师的

参考例句：

• She has donated money to establish a pharmaceutical laboratory.她捐款成立了一个药剂实验室。
• We are engaged in a legal tussle with a large pharmaceutical company.我们正同一家大制药公司闹法律纠纷。

28 distressed   

痛苦的

参考例句：

• He was too distressed and confused to answer their questions. 他非常苦恼而困惑，无法回答他们的问题。
• The news of his death distressed us greatly. 他逝世的消息使我们极为悲痛。

29 standing   

n.持续，地位；adj.永久的，不动的，直立的，不流动的

参考例句：

• After the earthquake only a few houses were left standing.地震过后只有几幢房屋还立着。
• They're standing out against any change in the law.他们坚决反对对法律做任何修改。

30 liberated   

a.无拘束的，放纵的

参考例句：

• The city was liberated by the advancing army. 军队向前挺进，解放了那座城市。
• The heat brings about a chemical reaction, and oxygen is liberated. 热量引起化学反应，释放出氧气。

31 galls   

v.使…擦痛( gall的第三人称单数 )；擦伤；烦扰；侮辱

参考例句：

• Best results will be obtained on recently formed galls. 如果瘿瘤是新近形成的，则效果最好。 来自辞典例句
• Crown galls are cancerous growths composed of disorganized and proliferating plant cells. 冠瘿是无组织的正在不断增殖的植物细胞所组成的癌状物。 来自辞典例句

32 bastard   

n.坏蛋，混蛋；私生子

参考例句：

• He was never concerned about being born a bastard.他从不介意自己是私生子。
• There was supposed to be no way to get at the bastard.据说没有办法买通那个混蛋。

33 vaccines   

疫苗，痘苗( vaccine的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• His team are at the forefront of scientific research into vaccines. 他的小组处于疫苗科研的最前沿。
• The vaccines were kept cool in refrigerators. 疫苗放在冰箱中冷藏。

34 edgy   

adj.不安的；易怒的

参考例句：

• She's been a bit edgy lately,waiting for the exam results.她正在等待考试结果，所以最近有些焦躁不安。
• He was nervous and edgy, still chain-smoking.他紧张不安，还在一根接一根地抽着烟。

35 arenas   

表演场地( arena的名词复数 )； 竞技场； 活动或斗争的场所或场面； 圆形运动场

参考例句：

• Demolition derbies are large-scale automobile rodeos that take place in big arenas. 撞车比赛指的是在很大的竞技场上举行的大型汽车驾驶技术表演。
• Are there areas of privacy in the most public of arenas? 在绝大部分公开的场合中存在需要保护隐私的领域吗？

36 lawsuit   

n.诉讼，控诉

参考例句：

• They threatened him with a lawsuit.他们以诉讼威逼他。
• He was perpetually involving himself in this long lawsuit.他使自己无休止地卷入这场长时间的诉讼。

37 defensive   

adj.防御的；防卫的；防守的

参考例句：

• Their questions about the money put her on the defensive.他们问到钱的问题，使她警觉起来。
• The Government hastily organized defensive measures against the raids.政府急忙布置了防卫措施抵御空袭。